1. 

   Joel Grant

   Okay, since I am the friend referred to a couple of times in your blog post, I will post some comments in response. After reading your post I went and listened to the podcast a second time, and it"s like we were listening to two separate conversations. The two of them clearly have great respect for one another, and had a very good conversation that cleared the air on two separate beefs. The two made each other laugh, commiserated about a few things and for the most part were in agreement about most things they discussed. At no point did the discussion become even a little bit heated or sour. They ended the conversation on very good terms, and were both happy the conversation took place. So to have been hoping that Rogan physically attacked Maron seems a bit out of place. I think you"ll find if you listen to it again that Rogan generally agrees with Maron on most things, but had his own justification and outlook on things.

   For those who don"t know, Joe Rogan and Marc Maron have had a bit of a running feud over the years. Joe Rogan doesn"t like Maron for his comments regarding Joe"s confrontation with Carlos Mencia. On the flip side Maron admits to not liking Rogan because he feels like he sold out by doing Fear Factor and feels like Rogan shouldn"t be such an advocate for comedians after hosting a reality show.

   Rogan"s beef was twofold: first for an interview on the podcast with Mencia where he felt that Maron was too soft on Mencia and second that Maron made a comment that Rogan shouldn"t have dealt with Mencia in public, at a club, on film. During the conversation Maron admits that he didn"t know the whole story at the time and expresses regret for the comment. Rogan accepts this. Rogan goes on to say that while he"s glad the situation got dealt with, if he could do it again he wouldn"t have done it in public. Both agree they are glad it is behind them and that Mencia is a troubled guy who needs help.

   Maron"s beef was a bit about being jealous about Rogan getting Newsradio, which Rogan says he totally understands, and for being an outspoken voice of integrity in standup, having done Fear Factor. Not for having taken the Fear Factor job. More on that later.

   The first thing that turned off of Maron"s Podcast was the commercials, talk about selling out. The next thing that bothered me was that he started his Podcast with a rant about irony and integrity. Knowing what I do about Maron"s thoughts on Joe Rogan, and the fact that Rogan was his guest that particular day, I could only assume he was setting up his argument before his guest even arrived.

   You"re bothered by commercials? Rogan has commercials in his podcast too; sponsorship is how stuff gets on the air. Both are quite open about the selling out aspect of that, and that you have to do what you have to do. I"m personally not as bothered by the short plug at the beginning of the podcast as I am by the ones Howard Stern does in the middle of his show, particularly because you have to buy a subscription to Sirius just to hear the Stern show.

   I assume this is the first time you have listened to Maron. His opening 4-5 minute bit is about whatever is on his mind at the time. Was it connected to the upcoming interview with Rogan? Maybe, I can"t say for sure one way or the other. Given that Rogan and Maron had spoken before the podcast and already buried the hatchet I don"t think he was setting up the audience to side with him. I don"t think anyone was expected to side anywhere. Maron doesn"t have any misconceptions about his career. He started doing the podcast after a messy divorce, not much money saved, career stalled, and borderline suicidal. Most of the time he talks about his own shortcomings and how he is dealing with them. In the rant you are talking about he speaks with regret about the selling out he has done over the years. Again, more on that later.

   "I was thinking about irony, I was thinking about Charlie Sheen, I"ve been thinking about myself, I"ve been thinking about integrity."

   He mentions Charlie Sheen because he"s an easy target and that"s what bullies do. He can"t just talk about Joe Rogan because he needs to face him for the interview. Instead he leads the listener to agree with his thoughts on ironic detachment so that you can relate to him later in the Podcast when he actually faces Rogan and in a much less confrontational tone asks him how someone doing comedy with integrity can work on a show like Fear Factor, and at the same time make fun of it? Instead he makes believe that he was thinking about some guys sitting in a strip club making fun of the strippers through what he calls "Ironic Detachment".

   I don"t see how Maron acted like a bully at all. In fact, he mentioned Charlie Sheen a couple of times but I wasn"t even sure why he did, he seemed to leave Sheen alone. Just said he was thinking about him. I might have to listen to that part again. The first time I heard it I thought hew was talking about "hipsters" and the common attitude of the day that is to like things "ironically". I didn"t think this was about Rogan.

   "…Is that your excuse for not committing to your emotional reaction to it? Is an ironic disposition another form of cowardice that just enables you to repress your emotions or not have them? Or do whatever you think the rest of the people are doing? I am sick of this fucking irony shit, I"ll tell ya man because in a situation like that if you saying thats ironic does that mean the strippers are in on it? Are they all old, and backstage, and beat-up, and saying to each other "hey isn"t the great we are really turning stripping in on itself. We"re deconstructing it. We"re presenting it in a different way. Our very existence is mocking the reality of what people expect from strippers in the day and age we live in now…or are they just happy people are coming and throwing money at them for whatever reason they are throwing money at them…in some situations if you have ironic detachment you are actually more depraved than the guys that are actually going there to get some puriant excitement…if your there to say "this is so fucked, oh dude look at her she"s so old, this is so sad…" then you are disingenuous, you are dishonest, your ironic detachment makes you half a person, make you lack of self, makes you a coward."

   Again, I don"t think this was about Rogan. The interview with Rogan took place before this bit was recorded, and Rogan did sort of "own" his role on Fear Factor. None of this is what he said his problem with Rogan was.

   This crap goes on and on as Maron plants the seed for his later discussion with Rogan.

   "Is it ironic to be at a job that you know you hate but because your over qualified or you have no choice…as you sit with that feeling you are taking an ironic position and that makes you feel better. Is that real irony or is that just sad? How long does that go on for before you realize this just isn"t worth it. I"m compromising my integrity. I"m killing a part of my soul here. That"s not ironic, that"s tragic."

   It"s very obvious to me that the guys in the strip club mocking the strippers are Joe Rogan making fun of Fear Factor. Maron is the guy pulling his pud under the table at an opportunity like Fear Factor. He is convinced that it"s his integrity that keeps him from accomplishing such financial freedom, when in fact it is his own lack of enthusiasm and talent. Tragically ironic that Maron hosted on a similar game show that never caught on. He just never had the chance to show his integrity before it was cancelled. How ironic that his distaste for Rogan stems from that very same brand of selling out.

   Now you seem very bitter and I think way off the mark. He"s done a comic rant about an attitude he finds distasteful. You"ve suggested he"s "pulling his pud" and than state that is a "fact" that he has a lack of enthusiasm and talent. I had no idea you had such insight into Maron"s inner self and career path…

   He says that he "took it in the ass for money…", got lucky that the show was cancelled, and who knows what he might have become if he had continued to do that job? Um, maybe successful and not working out of your garage?

   I think he is suggesting that he wouldn"t have been happy with himself as a game show host, even if it paid well. I can understand that. Later when he discusses hosting Fear Factor with Rogan, he asks how Rogan dealt with it and he gets an answer. And Rogan agrees with Maron a lot on that topic.

   Once Rogan is on the scene there is a bunch of uncomfortable small talk before Maron jumps into what he doesn"t like about Joe. Maron can"t comprehend how Joe can host Fear Factor and still do an intelligent brand of comedy. How can Joe Rogan, the host of Fear Factor, care so much about comedy that he calls out Carlos Mencia for stealing jokes? He keeps leading Rogan to this path of Fear Factor regret that he wants Joe to repent and it just doesn"t exist.

   The small talk wasn"t uncomfortable; there was obvious mutual respect and cordiality. They went through Rogan"s childhood, school and family life, his martial arts training, and how he got into comedy. Rogan even remarks that he admired Maron and that he was a major positive influence early in his career.
   Once they get to the hard feelings, which they do not stickhandle around but discuss openly and straightforwardly, Maron tells Rogan what he had felt in the past, and in such a manner that says "I was in a bad place and I got jealous and angry about this and that" mainly about Newsradio. Rogan says he understand the feeling, and got that show in a stroke of luck. Maron praised his work on the show and doesn"t say he didn"t deserve it. He seems to have gotten past the feelings of jealousy and that issue is put to rest.

   On the Mencia issue, Maron admits that he reacted before he knew all of the facts and the two of them clear the air on the issue quite nicely I thought. Neither one seems to have any hard feelings about it and they move on to the next topic: Fear Factor.

   o Do you feel like you sold out?
   o Is it a weighty cross to bare?
   o Did it go too long?
   o What impact did Fear Factor have on the comedy business and television?
   o Do you think you put comedy writers out of work by doing reality TV?
   o Does the UFC clear your conscience about doing Fear Factor?
   o How would (your dead friend) Bill Hicks feel about Fear Factor as a reality?

   Really, your going to make Joe Rogan guilty about doing Fear Factor because Bill Hicks might frown upon a show where you encourage people to eat animal dicks?
   These questions you list are hugely out of context. What you don"t seem to address here is that Rogan pretty much agreed with everything Maron suggests. That yes, he did it for the money, yes he thought it was pretty stupid. Sometimes it was fun and a lot of the time he hated it. When Maron said it was moronic, Rogan agreed and simply stated if it wasn"t him, it would have been someone else and if it wasn"t him hosting he would feel the same way as Maron did. They agreed that the "Faustian bargain" was made for his financial security in exchange for people"s altered perceptions of him. Rogan"s defense was that he was straightforward about doing it for the money.

   One of the questions that bothered me the most was: Do you feel like you contributed to the dumbing down of society? Like don"t you feel bad to be a part of a show that makes people stupid? So Maron is insinuating that people who watch Fear Factor are stupid?

   Rogan"s answer to this was not that the show wasn"t contributing to the dumbing down of society. He doesn"t dispute that at all. His answer is that society would be dumbed down whether he was involved or not. He admits it was a dumb show. He doesn"t think it is bad to be on or to watch a dumb show. And Maron seems to accept this answer.

   When I heard this I went back to a conversation I was having with my friend about Fear Factor coming back on and how pumped I was that Joe had signed on to host it. He told me he didn"t like it. Thought it was moronic. It wasn"t his intent to make me feel dumb for liking it because he knows how much I like Rogan but I wondered how much Maron"s take influenced him.

   Easy: none at all. I formed my opinion on Fear Factor years ago, when I watched a couple of episodes. I"ve been listening to Maron"s podcast for the past two weeks. And I listen to it for the guests, not to have him shape my own opinions.
   This crap about writers being out of work because of reality television and Rogan feeling guilty for being a part of it is nonsense. Imagine being a cashier and your store installs a bunch of self checkouts that the customers really seem to like. Your offered a job to be that guy who oversees the self checkouts while a bunch of other cashiers with less seniority are being laid off. Do you pass on the job as a matter of integrity?

   You probably sadly accept it because you have to. And you die a little on the inside. People who write for television (like Maron does) HATE "reality" shows. Quite simply, it"s the self checkout machine that is putting them out of work so a company can save some money.

   At the end of the podcast I was hoping that Rogan would eventually get pissed off and defend Maron"s offensive questioning with a Darth Choke. I wasn"t 100% satisfied with Joe"s own defensive mechanism while being probed about Fear Factor and selling out. What I wanted to hear was "Fuck ya, Fear Factor was fun and I made a shit load of money. Don"t like it, don"t watch it dummy". It seemed more like he needed to condone his actions and convince Maron that he was still a legit comic while he was hosting the show. It doesn"t matter.

   Here"s where you"re hoping it got violent? The two of them cleared the air quite calmly and found that they were pretty much in agreement on everything. Rogan did say that he did Fear Factor because they paid him a lot and he grew to hate it. He was "self medicating" in order to do the show. He did stick up for the show for the value of "we can have dumb shows and people can like them just fine" which Maron didn"t argue with.

   I also loved Maron"s questioning about steroids.

   My friend and I had a prior debate on another occasion while watching the UFC as to whether or not Joe was on steroids. I said no and he said fersure. That was another reason he told me to listen to this particular installment of WTF. He said that Joe admits to doing steroids. Now I know why this show is called: What the fuck? I didn"t hear anything of the sort.

   I said Rogan admits to "juicing". He admits to his hormone replacements, including testosterone and HGH. He also admits to having taken an anabolic that was "legal at the time" earlier on. I consider that juicing. I strongly suspect he has taken more steroids than he will admit to.

   "People come on my show and act a little more low key and human than they do in their own world. I guess that"s what I am doing here."
   - Marc Maron (narcissist douche)

   Maron is nowhere near a narcissist. He"s a lot closer to a self hater. His interviews with other comedians have been quite fascinating and he does seem to have a knack for getting them to open up.

   Anyway, that was a long post. I hope you don"t get violent with me for disagreeing with you and put me in a "Darth choke", whatever that is. I"ll practice my "Skywalker escape and run away"

   Cheers!

   Comment by Joel Grant on September 1, 2011 at 9:41 pm
2. 

   peever

   Yes Joel, I do agree with you. We must have been listening to two different conversations. Although I do want to choke you for making me format this.

   Comment by peever on September 1, 2011 at 9:46 pm

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